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n/a
deleted

195 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2008 :  21:31:30  Show Profile
Is it Universally condemned in the Church?

Yiorgos75
Average Member

Australia
615 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2008 :  19:26:48  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by -James-

Is it Universally condemned in the Church?

Yes, but so is adultery, fornication, and any other passion of the body which impedes our growth toward a communion of love with the Trinity.
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Aristokles
Senior Member

USA
1097 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2008 :  22:11:31  Show Profile  Send Aristokles a Yahoo! Message
Couldn't resist all those qualifications, could you, George? When I saw the question I waited for your expected response.

Just to clarify the answer: YES it is.
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n/a
deleted

195 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2008 :  22:53:09  Show Profile
Thank you both.

But for better understanding, do you have some article or something for a better understanding? Like a council, or something?
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macacic
Administrator

USA
2414 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2008 :  23:51:38  Show Profile
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/searchresults.aspx?kw=homosexuality
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Yiorgos75
Average Member

Australia
615 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2008 :  08:08:50  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Aristokles

Couldn't resist all those qualifications, could you, George? When I saw the question I waited for your expected response.

Just to clarify the answer: YES it is.

What's your point Mitso? Am I that transparent in my types of response?

Anyway, I thought I answered "YES". No qualifications there!
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Aristokles
Senior Member

USA
1097 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2008 :  13:44:03  Show Profile  Send Aristokles a Yahoo! Message
Indeed you did...was just angry this thread got canceled "elsewhere".
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BigSinner
Junior Member

291 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2008 :  17:02:18  Show Profile
James, by "homosexuality" you mean the actual act between two people of the same gender? This is actually one of the few sins which the Church believes "are screaming to be avenged," - that's how I would probably translate the Russian expression - vopiet ob otmschenii. Only few extremely grave sins fall into this category.

However, if one has homosexual thoughts which they don't act upon and which they try to resist, then the mere fact of having thoughts may not be a sin. Probably all of us sometimes have sinful thoughts in our mind put there by the devil. I've read that as long as we immediately start to reject such thoughts (by, for example, starting to pray: "Lord have mercy!" until the thoughts go away), then we commit no sin. But if we start "exploring" such thoughts, giving them a thought (pardon the pun), or even go further by acting upon those thoughts (whether it is a thought to go and steal, or to punch someone, or to curse, etc), then, definitely, it's something which should be confessed as soon as possible with the strongest determination not to repeat this sin again.

For anyone interested in how homosexuality gets treated, this site has the info http://www.narth.com

Edited by - BigSinner on 06/01/2008 21:58:27
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Lover of Monasticism
Average Member

USA
919 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2008 :  18:34:29  Show Profile
I don't know if the genetics issue has been discussed in this thread yet or not, but here's my take on it: while many theologians would be avidly against the notion of an inclination towards homosexuality being in-born totally absurd, I disagree. I suppose that line of thinking stems from the idea of just why God would create anyone sinful; but is that really what he's doing? Here's what I think: some people are born with ADHD and a tendency towards a fiery temper. I myself have exhibited this since my youth. Is it a sin to behave this way? Yes. Yet, studies show that it is indeed genetic. I think that God has given me this cross to bear in order to serve as an opportunity for my salvation. Overcoming and controlling such an impulse (which I've not tamed as of yet) would certainly take a tremendous act of spiritual discipline, which would also further my advancement toward salvation.

This is why people are born with alcoholism, ADHD, Tourette Syndrome, narcolepsy, et cetera. The fathers even talk of people sometimes being born possessed. This happens, first and foremost, to serve as a catalyst for the person's salvation by overcoming such an obstacle, and to strengthen the faith of the parents. Perhaps the same can be said for being born with homosexual tendencies: if someone overcomes this by the grace of God with spiritual discipline, it not only works for their own salvation but also for all of their family and friends.

Saint Paul speaks to us about his "thorn in the flesh." Perhaps homosexuality is another one of those. Yes, it's a sin if we fall into it, but it may be something God uses for our salvation.

Just a thought. I'm not saying genetics are always the case, just that such a concept need to be unimaginable to Orthodox Christians.
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BigSinner
Junior Member

291 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2008 :  22:09:26  Show Profile
Lover of Monasticism, I think you have very valid thoughts. The most common example would probably be someone who is born a potential alcoholic due to genetics (like many Natives, who can't absorb alcohol nearly as well as Caucasians), or due to parents being alcoholics.
Such person would not become an alcoholic if they never have a drink, but should they have one, then it could be the beginning of the end.

From spiritual standpoint, we know that God judges people not in absolute, but in relative terms. That is, if you are born in an Orthodox family you will be judged one way, and if you are born deep in the jungles of the Amazon and never even heard of Christ, you would be judged differently. To those whom God gives a lot, from those He asks a lot.

As far as homosexuality, it could be (though I don't know) that some people are tempted by the devil with that particular sin more than others. But since homosexuality is such a grave sin I seriously doubt that there is anything genetical which predisposes people to committing that sin. Of course, someone who becomes homosexual after being raised by two gays would probably not be judged as harshly by The Lord as someone who was born in a pious Orthodox family but then decided to lead a promiscuous lifestyle. But still, a mortal sin is a mortal sin, so Lord have mercy on all of us and help us to stay away from the numerous temptations of the modern world.
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macacic
Administrator

USA
2414 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2008 :  08:29:03  Show Profile
The worst sin is the unrepentant one.
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wijube89
Junior Member

USA
211 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2008 :  10:05:56  Show Profile  Send wijube89 a Yahoo! Message
It seems like God would be setting you up for failure by causing you to be born gay. I wouldn't think He'd be that cruel.
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grengliman
Senior Member

USA
1107 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2008 :  10:41:58  Show Profile
quote:
[i]Originally posted by BigSinner[/i]
[br] a mortal sin is a mortal sin



Could you expand on this for me? I have never been taught or learned about defined levels of sin in Orthodoxy. I have always been under the assumption that sin is really any thought or action that misses the mark of being Christ like. This is an impediment to theosis, and through the mystery of repentance the "stick" is removed and the flow towards God becomes unhindered again.
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Lover of Monasticism
Average Member

USA
919 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2008 :  14:12:12  Show Profile
quote:
[i]Originally posted by wijube89[/i]
[br]It seems like God would be setting you up for failure by causing you to be born gay. I wouldn't think He'd be that cruel.


[i]Or[/i]... is it a great opportunity for salvation by overcoming it? And I didn't say "born gay,' just with a tendency towards it.

But the same can be said for alcoholism and being born with a fiery temper. We can't ignore those things as well. Is God setting [i]them[/i] up for failure, or is it a "thorn in the flesh" to work for your salvation and those around you, to bring you closer to God by overcoming it and serving as an example?


Again, it's just a theory. Ever since I became open to evolution and seeing the Old Testament in not quite such a literal light, I've become opened to ideas like these as well.



EDIT: And why aren't my italics codes working?

Edited by - Lover of Monasticism on 06/02/2008 14:41:43
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GBTWC
Junior Member

USA
188 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2008 :  15:26:30  Show Profile
LOM I agree with you on your thinking as far as this is something by the grace of God That can be overcome when someone works at it. According to science I'm genetically predisposed to be an alcoholic drug addict but by the Grace of God allowing me freedom and taking necessary action Ive been completely sober for over 19 years and now help others with the same issues. Something that seems to go hand in hand with drug addiction is promiscuity and homosexuality and I can testify that by the Grace of God and the right actions Ive seen several men who were "bi-sexual" or "homosexual" give up those lifestyles. So we can call it whatever we want but we do know God hates it becouse it hurts us and others.

with love in Christ

Edited by - GBTWC on 06/02/2008 15:27:34
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Lover of Monasticism
Average Member

USA
919 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2008 :  21:57:30  Show Profile
Well, unless you believe that the earth is literally 7,516 years old, is flat, has a glass-like dome over it holding an aerial ocean at bay, and that the sun revolves around it (all things stated in the Bible), I'd say that these things are probably not quite so literal.

EDIT: This is in reply to the evolution comment that was deleted.

Edited by - Lover of Monasticism on 06/11/2008 11:22:03
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