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CotoiNebun
Starting Member
USA
30 Posts |
 Posted - 11/02/2005 : 19:06:46
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OK the name being diffrent is self explanitory. I am assuming that Eastern Catholic is not Orthodox. 25 years ago was the first time I heard this term. I set up a Christian BBS in the Phoenix area on my Commadore 64 and allowed people to dial in and post. A Priest signed up with the service under the name Father James and actually sent me a good book. All I heard of was Roman Catholic. This Priest was married and impressed me, however I still remained protestant. At the time I did not know of the Orthodox church. Now that I am learning every day about the Orthodox church, the question comes to mind... What is the diffrence and what does an Eastern Catholic believe? I never got a chance to ask him since I was more into how my computer worked and what charismatic book I was reading. I know some follow the Pope and others don't. I was a little curious about that too.
*Chuck*
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." |
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Larry
Starting Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2005 : 11:48:58
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Chuck: Eastern Catholic churches (often referred to as Uniat or Uniate churches) are those Christian churches professing the Pope of Rome as the supreme head of the Church of Christ. They do, however, utilize the Eastern Orthodox liturgy and other rites with a few variations to acknowledge the Roman pontiff. "Uniat" means "in union with Rome".
Most, if not all, are the results of Roman Catholic proselytism of and Western political/economic leverage on Orthodox populations in Eastern Europe, the Balkans, the Middle East and Russia.
Examples are Melkite Greek-Catholic, Romanian Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, Ruthenian Catholic, Russian Catholic, all of which have their antecedents,if that is the right term, in ethnic Eastern Orthodox churches, all of whom look to the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople/Istanbul as the first among equals of their patriarchs.
I hope this accurately provides some insight. I look forward to further comments and/or corrections.
Larry |
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n/a
deleted
52 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2005 : 12:33:38
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Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!
Eastern rite Catholic churches betrayed the very principal that unites the church: leaving their very own mother patriarchate for another(Rome). Imagine our Lord Jesus leaving His Holy Mother for another?! Uniatism will never be the bridge between the East and the West. In fact, the Uniate churches are mostly left out of conferences in dialogues with the Roman Catholic & Orthodox Churches. The Orthodox Patriarchates will never accept position less than autocephalic or a position less in authority to the Pope of Rome. Orthodoxy believes and affirms the conciliar tradition of government in the church. The papal monarchy deviated centuries ago from the conciliar tradition as it developed and attained secular powers of supremacy. It's interesting to note that the late Pope John Paul II opened the discussion as to the nature of the Primacy to the Orthodox. However, I have never heard from Rome how they would accept being part of our conciliar Orthodox tradition.
At any rate, uniates have good intentions of serving Christ and the Church but their predecessors made a major mistake leaving their Orthodox Mother Patriarchates for the sake of Roman union. Uniatism should be dismantled and handed back to their originally mothers but Rome will never subscribe to this. We should always bear in mind the commandment: "Honor thy mother". The return to thy Father's house is the best thing for the uniates whether Rome agrees or disagrees.
fil Maseeh |
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odox
Starting Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2005 : 18:22:26
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Hello everyone, and welcome,
Yes, the establishment of the Uniate churches was a sad thing for Christianity and for the Orthodox and Uniates especially. I keep this uppermost in my mind.
I'm not as familiar with the Uniate churches of the Middle East. However, I vividly remember an elder of our parish (ethnically Greek and Lebanese) answering my query regarding the makeup of the Christians in Lebanon: "We know there are many who love to fight and to kill. They are not like us. We do not believe those who like to fight are Christians". He was speaking as an Antiochian Orthodox Christian from the Middle East, and was referring to the Maronite and Melkite groups which comprised the ("Christian") Phalangist militias; these militia groups were best known for their support of the Israeli invasion of southern Lebanon. And yes, the Phalangists were responsible for atrocities.
I remind my fellow Orthodox brethren how sad and painful this topic is for many of us, and I beseech my brethren to approach it with sensitivity. To inquire about the history of the Orthodox in the Middle East from one of their number is likely to bring either tears or refusal. As they are a people and a faith trapped between Islam and a Catholico-Protestant-secular West, they are a people that have undergone an almost-casual extermination. The story of the Syrian, Lebanese and Palestinian Orthodox is one of great tragedy, and I beg that you approach it prayerfully.
I have not travelled in the Middle East, but I have travelled extensively through eastern Europe, especially those areas where the Uniate church holds sway. Baffled by their continued existence and thinking they were some kind of Midaeval throwback, I asked many questions and visited many places.
In a nutshell, back in the days of Polish conquest and expansionism, Poland and it's allies forced the conversion of tens of thousands of Orthodox to the Catholic faith by point of sword. Some of Her bishops fled to avoid this, some stayed and were martyred, some capitulated. The mass of the laity however, refused to abandon the Orthodox worship and tenets; and as Polish interests were more toward acquisition of land than real conversion, so the barest 'official' acknowledgement of the Pope of Rome was sufficient for the Poles and for the See of Rome. This all occurred about 4-500 years ago.
We would think, being Orthodox people, that the earliest opportunity for these people to throw off their Papish fealty, and regain the wholeness of the Faith, would be siezed. I remind my brethren of the interplay of complex forces over hundreds of years: Polish domination, and with it the offerings (and allure) of Western culture and science, was complete. Imperial Russia, her Orthodox Faith having been usurped by Czar Peter, at first appeared to be the Uniate's benefactor and savior; she proved to be no better (and often worse) than the Poles.
The events of the 20th century have cemented the situation as we now find it: Uniates are staunchly proCatholic and proWestern, strongly nationalistic and deeply devout. They are also eastward-turning for their spiritual nourishment; the great majority of the saints they revere are the same as ours, and they hold to the eastern standards regarding church and parish governance and worship. And believe me, my brethren, when I say they are fully aware of having been used badly; as trump-card, negotiating chip and often summarily ignored by all sides. The great powers have used them when it suited them, and discarded them when it suited them.
The call for the Uniates of eastern Europe to return to the Orthodox fold is well-intentioned; however, I beg your forgiveness my brethren when I say it is simplistic and uninformed. It makes as naught the sufferings these people have undergone at the hands of the 'Orthodox', especially under the Soviets and the Soviet 'Orthodox' church.
The Uniates themselves, when looking westward, see the potential for prosperity, for religious freedom and for a fresh infusion of western European culture (as much as we might shudder at this, it's better in some ways than what they have), and especially protection. When they look eastward, they see political turmoil and a wrestling between authoritarianism and true democracy, they see conflicting jurisdictions (as in Ukraine), they see instability, they see the possible return of a great Russian state with territorial ambitions together with forced incorporation into Orthodoxy (again). Bucharest barely acknowledges them, Minsk hardly at all, and Kiev only when politically necessary. My brethren, it is well-known the heart of much of the newfound freedoms in eastern Europe was found first among the Uniates; and the areas that have survived best against drug-abuse and alcoholism, divorce, violent crime and social breakdown after the breakup of the Soviet Union have been largely Uniate areas. To this I am an eyewitness.
I had the great good fortune to travel with a priest of the Moscow Patriarchate across western and southern Ukraine by car and train. He had graduated seminary during Soviet times (a difficult feat indeed, and cost his family dearly) and felt the immediate power of the Holy Spirit at his ordination. He is an energetic priest in his small parish in south Ukraine, but otherwise a man of few words in theological matters. He exemplifies "watch, and pray" in this respect.
Now, before leaving on one of my trips there, I had asked for advice on how to properly deal with various issues concerning the Uniates from a number of our clergy here. There were various instructions as you might expect; not to attend Liturgy if an Orthodox one was available, and to not partake of the Body and Blood, to respect but not revere their priests and icons, to cross myself when passing the Orthodox churches and shrines but not of the Uniates, etc. (As a side note, most clergy here in the West seem unaware there are Ukrainian jurisdictions not considered 'canonical')
When travelling with this Russian Patriarchate priest of-few-words through several towns and villages, I observed him crossing himself when passing both the Orthodox AND Uniate churches! I ventured to ask him about this, expecting his reply to be something other than what it was: he simply said,"It is the same Church as ours, but we are merely separated this short while". In their heart, they are overwhelmingly Orthodox.
So, for the Uniates of eastern Europe, the crimes of the Poles and their forced conversion to fealty to the Pope are long forgotten. It is only on the dim edges of memory do they remember Poland's military moves against them shortly after WW I; freshest in their minds is the confiscation of their churches by the Soviet 'Orthodox' church after WW II, and how many millions of them died during Stalin's starvation programs without protest from the Moscow Patriarchate. Yes, many of them are painfully aware of how they are being used in dialogue between Rome and Moscow, neither have fulfilled their roles as 'spiritual fathers'. And appeals to 'canonicity' or to the Fathers will not move them; they get that from both sides.
My brothers and sisters, I DO beseech you not to worsen the problem by agitation! I ask you, in most humble terms, to feel the horror that has befallen these people within your hearts, and to pray for them, and to extend to them nothing less than the hand of Christian love and compassion. Embrace them as brothers separated from us only by the worst and most harrowing acts of history; they are our brothers nonetheless.
Lord, have mercy upon me, a sinner.
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shanmo9
Junior Member
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2005 : 20:33:20
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Odox-What a wonderful statement-Lord help me to be as non-judgemental
Blessings,
John |
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n/a
deleted
52 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2005 : 21:00:04
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Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!
Dear Odox,
You are right about being compassionate and loving. This is foremost our practice. At the same time, we should not be silent when asked about uniatism. The Uniates are not the only people to have suffered under communism as you may know. The blame for the suffering/persecutions of the uniates is credited to the "church of the KGB", not Orthodoxy.
As for loving the uniates I have no choice. Some are my very own family: my mother & her side of the family. My parents both baptized Orthodox but married Melkite. How's that for love & compassion. LOL. I can never get my mother to break from Rome. LOL I try and I give up. LOL 
fil Maseeh |
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parascheva1014
Moderator
USA
1190 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2005 : 10:03:49
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| Odox, Thank you for taking the time to write so much. I had no idea what the history was. |
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CotoiNebun
Starting Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2005 : 05:50:52
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Thanks for the history Odox. I will keep my brothers in sisters in prayer.
*Chuck*
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." |
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Eastern Catholic?
