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parascheva1014
Moderator
USA
1273 Posts |
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Aristokles
Average Member
USA
931 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2009 : 06:19:31
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| Translation? Preliminary work on addressing the canonical mess in America, western Europe, Australia which subject is on agenda of another conference. |
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grengliman
Senior Member
USA
1053 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2009 : 08:54:13
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I seems like they will need to make some changes in the canonical tradition of the Church to satisfy all the jurisdictional overlaps etc.
Nobody wants to lose his or her bishop or diocese for that matter, but to have two bishops in the same city is outside of the tradition of the ancient Church. |
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Yiorgos75
Junior Member
Australia
461 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2009 : 20:59:47
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quote:
Originally posted by grengliman
I seems like they will need to make some changes in the canonical tradition of the Church to satisfy all the jurisdictional overlaps etc.
Nobody wants to lose his or her bishop or diocese for that matter, but to have two bishops in the same city is outside of the tradition of the ancient Church.
Not unless Metopolitanates are created. One bishop would be chosen as Metropolitan with the other bishops being noted as auxillaries. Technically, if I am not mistaken, that can be done.
Ideally, all jurisdictions which are known as the "barbarous lands" and are outside of traditional ethnic countries or Patriarchies should come under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. (Thus why the Patriarchate is ecumenical and not ethincally tied to any particular ethnic group - dispite what some people say).
Quite frankly, the Russians have made a mess of the jurisdiction in America. |
Edited by - Yiorgos75 on 10/03/2009 21:00:17 |
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grengliman
Senior Member
USA
1053 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 12:27:57
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Actually an "auxiliary" bishop doesn't really exist. All bishops are equal and gather around them the fullness of the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Where the bishop is the Church is.
Orthodox Ecclesiastical unity is qualitative rather that quantitative (unlike the Roman church, where you must be in communion with the bishop of Rome to be canonical).
Each local bishop and his priests, deacons and laity represent the complete Church. These complete churches are in communion with one another as a Eucharistic community united under the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the liturgical and sacramental life of the Church.
The early Church did not really know of two bishops in the same city; however, now with most Patriarchates represented in America it may be necessary to rethink things. I'm not sure how they will solve this.
I have read different interpretations of the canon (can't remember which one) that appears to give jurisdiction over "barbarian" lands to the the Ecumenical Patriarchate. As a child of the Ecumenical Patriarchate (GOA) I humbly agree with its decisions; however, I pray our hierarchs can find a way to keep the tradition of the Church intact and keep the flock spiritually fed.
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Aristokles
Average Member
USA
931 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 06:28:51
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| Good points. The fact is that our world today is vastly different from the ages of canon creation. Trying to strictly adhere to the canons is probably impossible. I only pray the din of worry and hand-wringing of suspicion holds off long enough for our bishops to do His will. |
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parascheva1014
Moderator
USA
1273 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 09:48:20
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| IF people would have a greater care for some of the purely speculative accusations they post to the Internet and stop making the bishops job harder by distraction, than maybe they could get some of the real work done. I've been doing a lot of reserch lately about the phenomena of the Internet and "news" reporting and it is mind boggling to see what is going on. It's also completely mind blowing that reasonable people are falling for this. I think I'm going to eventually write an article on it, if I can ever make heads or tails of all the confusion being created. |
Edited by - parascheva1014 on 10/06/2009 09:59:39 |
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grengliman
Senior Member
USA
1053 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2009 : 18:39:50
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I think the problem with the canonical situation in America is rooted in the "melting pot" aspect of the country (we could discuss this at length).
Of course Orthodoxy is in no way ethnic based, in fact nationalism within the Church is a specific heresy--I believe it is called philitism sp??
I really can't imagine what would happen if, say, the Arab Orthodox Christians had their tradition replaced with Russian or Greek tradition.
Personally I would miss the liturgical Greek, quite a lot, if the Greek archdiocese was dissolved or "meshed" with a newly formed American Patriarchate.
We don't need to fear or put away our ethnic roots, we need to come together and respect and appreciate one another.
For me spending a week with daily matins and vespers along with a liturgy celebrated within the Antiochian tradition was awesome. I think if the same group spent a week with my familiar Greek services they would feel the same. I spent many years in a Russian Orthodox Church and simply loved the Slavonic chant and the little nuances that differed from what I was used to.
Maybe the bishops need to get out a map of America and figure out how to keep the canonical tradition intact yet reach out to the Orthodox in specific communities.
What we laity can do is show our bishops that we love one another and don't care if the Orthodox Church that goes up down the road is not our jurisdiction--we thrilled its Orthodox. We can go to each others services and try to learn from one another. Perhaps we should share our common Orthodox heritage in the joy and love that befits the Kingdom of God on earth.
To much politics--money--gets in the way of the spiritual health of Orthodox Christians in America. Time to set our house in order. Perhaps we should look to the countries who have nurtured Orthodoxy for centuries as models? What do you guys think? |
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macacic
Moderator
USA
1968 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2009 : 19:22:30
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I am a HUGE supporter of English in the Divine Liturgy! It is imperative that the parishioners understand what is going on, particularly with children who only speak English.
That having been said, hearing a Greek or Slavonic Litany on a regular basis is an excellent reminder that Orthodoxy is older and greater than any one nation or language. |
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grengliman
Senior Member
USA
1053 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2009 : 21:00:07
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I too support English in the services! It is exactly how you said--imperative the people understand the prayers...
For me and probably others it is an aesthetic appeal that really has nothing to do with the core reason for the worship. Emotionally or even psychologically hearing a litany or hymn in liturgical Greek gives me the sense of being in Gods house.
I'm not sure there is anything fundamentally wrong with this. My prayer is the Church will find ways to keep her tradition whole and flock nurtured in America.
The fact is we have Orthodox Russians, Greeks, Arabs, Serbians, Romanians etc. in America; is there a way to iron out the canonical mess and not scrap the history and heritage? Can each patriarchate be present in America with its Clergy and laity and Orthodoxy still present the visible, united, Church of Jesus Christ?
On a side note--the way our priest celebrates the Divine Liturgy is pretty cool. He chants it mostly in English, but if you go six or seven weeks in a row you will have heard the entire service in Greek. We always get both languages for the Epistle, Gospel, Creed and Lord's Prayer. I love it! |
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parascheva1014
Moderator
USA
1273 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2009 : 23:08:37
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That is cool. He must have fun keeping track of what week he is on. You could easily know both liturgies if you went enough, even if you didn't speak greek.
I also hope we can preserve all the traditions. Actually I think it's the only way anything will fly.
Honestly I have no idea how this would be done. I'm curious to see what they propose. |
Edited by - parascheva1014 on 10/07/2009 23:09:40 |
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shanmo9
Junior Member
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 07:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by parascheva1014
That is cool. He must have fun keeping track of what week he is on. You could easily know both liturgies if you went enough, even if you didn't speak greek.
I also hope we can preserve all the traditions. Actually I think it's the only way anything will fly.
Honestly I have no idea how this would be done. I'm curious to see what they propose.
I agree it is important to preserve the cultural traditions. My wife and I are converts. We attend a local GOA parish and love the people there.
At first it was a bit strange to hear the liturgy in Greek, about half of it is done in Greek, but the service book is in Greek and English, so it is easy to follow. The odd thing is after 6 years, we have no trouble understanding even if it were in 100% Greek.
Of course, the Creed and the Our Father is always done in both languages, including the Gospel and the Espistle. ( even most Greeks do not understand the liturgital Greek ).
Having been raised in the Roman Catholic Church, pre Vatican II we were exposed to the Latin Mass from childhood and most of our generation could follow it with no trouble. I can recall the words of my father when the big change occurred. "Might as well go to the Prostestant church, it's all the same now!" And he was a devote RC.
As we go through the Great Litany in Greek and the Consecration I am still moved to tears. I hope this never changes, it would lose some of it's beauty. English is not as an expressive language.
That being said, it is important for people to understand. and for the newcomers especially who attend our service it is good to make sure they can follow the service and feel they are a part of it.
Let's all be thankful to the immigrant communities who came here built their congregations and brought the true Church of God to the Americas. Unlike th RC church, they used their meager earnings to establish their churhces. I am so thankful for that. I hope we never forget that.
John |
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grengliman
Senior Member
USA
1053 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 19:11:10
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Tikanis shanmo9. Doxa to Theo!
Our parish consists of a high number of non-Greek converts. I'm not sure what service book you guys use, but ours is a red book, published by Narthex Press I think. What I like is it has the Greek, English and Greek-lish. Greek-lish being the word spelled phonetically for the Greek, but in English, for example:
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and forever and unto the the ages of ages amen in Greeklish would read--Thoxa Patri ke Io ke Agio Pnevmati ke nin ke ai ke is tus eonas Ton eonon Amin.
This way after you hear it a few times and kinda know what parts of the word to accent anyone who reads English can sing and pray right along with the liturgical Greek.
My mother, with not a drop of Greek blood in her veins, can sing those Greek hymns with more precision and spirit than most I've seen. In fact, quite a few of the non-Greek converts in my parish can give a lesson or two on Greek Church music.
I imagine its much the same around the other jurisdictions that use a non-English language in the services. That Cherubic hymn yanks a tear or two from me quite regularly, both in English and Greek... |
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shanmo9
Junior Member
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 19:53:28
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That reminds of the when my wife and I were in D.C.. At St. Constantine and Helen they had a service book with the Grreek, English and also the phonetics. I bouht a copy so I could learn the pronunciation of the Greek a;phabet. It was helpful.
Also at our church, St.Sophia, they are big on Greek language education. They have a lot of kids as well as adults attending. These classes are taken by many non Greeks.
Doxa to Theo!
John |
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ICXCNIKA
Starting Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2010 : 21:24:35
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This claim that the Patriarchate of Constantinople that all churches outside of tradional areas or in barbarian lands is a new claim and the claim that it is not an ethnic church is a Joke. When His Holiness addresses the congregation he address them as "My fellow greeks".
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/meletios.htm
http://www.aoiusa.org/2009/09/a-letter-to-the-ecumenical-patriarch-concerning-the-situation-of-the-diaspora/
These two links shows that this interpretation is new and unfounded.If Constantinople keeps pressing this issue it will only lead to a rupture of relations. The current Patriarch has done nothing but continually disturb the Holy Churches of God. He fought with (Intergalactic)Patriarch Aleksy, of Moscow and the Milky way, Patriarch Diodorus of Jerusalem, with even Archbishop Christodoulos of Athens and then there was issues also with Archbishops Iakovos and Spiridon. |
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Yiorgos75
Junior Member
Australia
461 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2010 : 22:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by ICXCNIKA
....(Intergalactic)Patriarch Aleksy, of Moscow and the Milky way...
I must admit that when I read this, I laughed!  Is this an in joke? I'm interested to know why you made that particular assertion. I have never heard it before.
Thanks
George |
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Episcopal Assemblies?
