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parascheva1014
Moderator
USA
1273 Posts |
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Yiorgos75
Junior Member
Australia
461 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2010 : 00:08:30
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How about starting with a unified, singular Archdiocese under one Patriarchate (in this case the EP) and then work towards Autocephaly say in about 100 to 200 years, once Orthodoxy truly becomes part of the American consciousness and when whole generations cannot remember being anything other than Orthodox.
The push for Autocephaly at this time is, quite frankly, half-baked and prone to failure. |
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parascheva1014
Moderator
USA
1273 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 02:08:39
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| It might take a thousand years before Orthodoxy is truly a part of the American consciousness. This country moves steadily away from God. It is only the Orthodox within it that do not. I agree on Autocephaly though. Unity under one Patriarchate does seem more logical. |
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grengliman
Senior Member
USA
1053 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 13:41:59
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Bottom line, the administrative situation in the USA is outside of the Church canons.
We should ask ourselves, are pastoral needs of the North American flock dictating this situation and if so, should canonical implementations be instituted to properly govern the Country?
It is easy to say, unity under one Patriarchate and deem that the nation falls under the EP, but America is unique in population make-up.
What's best (don't read easiest here) for the people of Jesus Christ is how it should be, right?
I worship in and am steward of a GOA parish and I would never want it any other way. Although, I have to admire what the Antiochians have done in terms of converts and youth programs, they far exceed my Patriarchates work in America, in my eyes.
I'm just not certain one unified liturgical praxis would be best for the people of America. I don't want my Greek taken away, but I completely understand why someone would not care to hear one word of Greek.
I bet many would not wish to lose the Orthodox liturgical life they have grown up with. Furthermore, financially our Mother Patriarchates depend on American support. Would Antioch suffer if it lost jurisdiction to the EP in America? Constantinople would be crushed without American support. Nobody wants this, do they?
Can American Orthodox unity be better served by giving groups like SCOBA the mechanisms needed to govern administratively within canonical guidelines? Do new canons need to be made to give the flock in America the very best chance at gaining spiritual perfection--theosis? |
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macacic
Moderator
USA
1968 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 16:05:57
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| I still need to read the posted literature, but I believe that the nature of America will require some sort of structure which will allow Greek parishes to be visited by a Greek bishop (for example) while being within a canonical structure. |
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Bryan
Starting Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 21:49:08
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If we are to be strictly canonical about this, we must immediately submit ourselves to Moscow, since it was Moscow that had canonical authority over the Americas, despite the Greeks' arrogant refusal to recognize this. Only after the Bolshevik Revolution did the Patriarchate of Constantinople try to claim exclusive authority over the Americas.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. |
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macacic
Moderator
USA
1968 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 07:55:35
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Please, let's not turn this into a Greek vs. Russian thing!
The question now is now we move forward. |
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grengliman
Senior Member
USA
1053 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 10:21:14
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Whilst I disagree with Bryan, I prefer not to debate this issue, it usually only leads to name calling and such--"arrogant Greeks" for example.
The ethnic "uniqueness" of the American population perhaps calls for a canonical structure where multiple Patriarchates are administratively able to preside.
New canons would have to be instituted for this to happen, however. |
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alexey
Junior Member
Russia
104 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 12:15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by grengliman
New canons would have to be instituted for this to happen, however.
New canons have been established by Roman Catholics, for example, when they recognized Pope and their own uniqueness.
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grengliman
Senior Member
USA
1053 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 14:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by alexey
New canons have been established by Roman Catholics, for example, when they recognized Pope and their own uniqueness.
What you are referring to is called "dogma" not canon--huge difference.
A dogma is a immutable tenant of the faith. It is a revealed truth that is neither relative, subjective or able to be circumvented.
You are correct, the Roman Catholic Church slipped into heresy with some of its dogmatic innovations.
Here is a small refresher:
A canon is a Church "law", but they are not the same as a secular law. Secular law is a preventative measure, the holy canons express a fundamental concept about the Church of Jesus Christ; they are theological in origin and pastoral in nature.
There are different types of canons--administrative and disciplinary for example. Disciplinary canons are the reaction to events that hinder the Orthodox Christian path to spiritual perfection in Jesus Christ.
I am speaking about administrative canons, similar to the ones that govern monastic property or jurisdictional boundaries.
You see, throughout the history of the Church, when certain needs of the flock arise the Church has her canonical mechanism to respond and guide the Christian life in the best ways possible. I am merely posing the question that perhaps a need has arisen in America.
You may enjoy America, it is truly wonderful to have multiple Orthodox Patriarchates and ethnicity's, side by side, each contributing to the faith in their unique and special ways. A united flock, offering spotless Orthodox worship to the most Holy Trinity.
Remember, a bishop as the power to circumvent a canon, but never a dogma! |
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Aristokles
Average Member
USA
931 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 15:37:55
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| Just a side note: Constantinople's financial survival depends very little on formal support from North America. Most of its money comes from Greece by a HUGE margin. |
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grengliman
Senior Member
USA
1053 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 17:10:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Aristokles
Just a side note: Constantinople's financial survival depends very little on formal support from North America. Most of its money comes from Greece by a HUGE margin.
I had heard a different story, but it wasn't from a authoritative source.
Good to know, I hope Greece, with its current economic problems will be able to continue the support of our ancient Ecumenical see. |
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Yiorgos75
Junior Member
Australia
461 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 22:37:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Bryan
If we are to be strictly canonical about this, we must immediately submit ourselves to Moscow, since it was Moscow that had canonical authority over the Americas, despite the Greeks' arrogant refusal to recognize this. Only after the Bolshevik Revolution did the Patriarchate of Constantinople try to claim exclusive authority over the Americas.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
Whilst I would also not like to let this thread devolve into a Greek vs Russian thing, all I can say is this: The Russian Patriarchate is NOT the Ecumenical Patriarchate, NEITHER it is the first amongst equals (no matter how much they wish that was the case).
The Russian Patriarchate is the Patriarchate of the Russians within the bounds of its borders. Nothing more, nothing less. And lets face it, it has enough to worry about in its own backyard, what with the numerous heretical sects and the lingering problem of evangelising a post-communist atheist society.
It is about time that the modern Russians stopped using the Church as a political instrument and stopped setting up so called "missionary parishes" in such a manner which is clearly meant for political gain. (i.e building a nominal Russian church in Pyongyang as a trade off for continual tacit support for the North Korean repressionist regime). |
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alexey
Junior Member
Russia
104 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 11:30:02
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"The Russian Patriarchate is the Patriarchate of the Russians within the bounds of its borders."
Uhum, we are sorry for Saint Herman of Alaska and also for Saint Nicolas, Equal-to-the-Apostles, Archbishop of Japan. Sorry for them, they just forgot asking your permission where they can preach or where they can't. Maybe you are jealous since they were doing well?
Ok, thus everyone knows what the Russian Church is. Well, now what one may say about EP.
Contemporary Constantinopol (Phanar) is the Renovationist Patriarchate (since 1923) with reinforced Papist ambitions (it is this way they recognize their 'primacy of honor') in regard to other local Orthodox Churches.
In 1998 the U.S. passed a law that obliges government to act always in support of the Patriarch of Constantinople. Now Phanar has become a legitimate political ally of the United States. One may not even talk about their close collaboration with the Vatican.
Nikolas (grengliman): "Constantinople would be crushed without American support."
Thats it! Agreed! I would appreciate to read though: Constantinople would be crushed without God's support, - but unfortunately this reality is tough.
Lily says: "This country moves steadily away from God." Then I wonder, where does Phanar move to with American support? If America has longterm, overall and sound Orthodox background? Does anyone believe that the U.S. government would care of Orthodoxy?
In my view, for American Orthodoxes, here is the choice between two irreconcilable approach. A question is as usual: what is more useful for your salvation. No matter which one of traditionalist Patriarch Greek or Russian you will choose I only pray that may Lord only instruct you to keep away from Ecumenical Patriarch.
Orthodoxy is the only Island where we still may work out our salvation and this Island shrinks from day to day. "Its later than you think! Hasten therefore to do the work of God.", - Blessed Fr. Seraphim of Platina.
(Sorry guys and ladies, it is Lenten time and I apologize for my frankness, nothing personal.) |
Edited by - alexey on 02/28/2010 13:08:11 |
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grengliman
Senior Member
USA
1053 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 17:19:53
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quote:
Originally posted by alexey
Nikolas (grengliman): "Constantinople would be crushed without American support."
Thats it! Agreed! I would appreciate to read though: Constantinople would be crushed without God's support, - but unfortunately this reality is tough.
You are right and by God's providence, Constantinople is still the Ecumenical See of the Orthodox Church--the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!
A shred of respect, perhaps?
I agree with you, not the best time for this. Forgive me for my lack of humility in this discussion.
May your Lenten journey be filled with blessings as we anticipate the empty tomb of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ. |
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Yiorgos75
Junior Member
Australia
461 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 19:43:28
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quote:
Originally posted by alexey
Uhum, we are sorry for Saint Herman of Alaska and also for Saint Nicolas, Equal-to-the-Apostles, Archbishop of Japan. Sorry for them, they just forgot asking your permission where they can preach or where they can't. Maybe you are jealous since they were doing well?
Preaching and the proper canonical order of the Church can be two separate things.
quote:
Contemporary Constantinopol (Phanar) is the Renovationist Patriarchate (since 1923) with reinforced Papist ambitions (it is this way they recognize their 'primacy of honor') in regard to other local Orthodox Churches.
And the MP has no Papist ambitions at all. Not even one!
Let's face it, the Russians are peeved because they see themselves as the largest of all Orthodox nations (with the most members) and believe that they should be at the helm of guiding the Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, this is not how things were ordained by God. Despite all the pressures, all the adversity and the daily martydom that the EP faces, it is still in the hands of the "Greeks" and has been preserved so only because of the will of God.
quote:
In 1998 the U.S. passed a law that obliges government to act always in support of the Patriarch of Constantinople. Now Phanar has become a legitimate political ally of the United States. One may not even talk about their close collaboration with the Vatican.
Well it is not as if Russia is bending over backwards politically to support the EP and to demand from Turkey the legitimate rights of the EP(which are being abused on a daily basis). Where is the Russian support? Where is their demand for a free EP and freedom of religion in Turkey? Where is their humility and thankfulness and support of their "Mother Church" who illumined them and gave them Orthodoxy?
Sometimes the Russian Church reminds me of a daughter who wishes to teach her mother how she should cook a dish that the mother taught the daughter to make.
quote:
Nikolas (grengliman): "Constantinople would be crushed without American support."
Thats it! Agreed! I would appreciate to read though: Constantinople would be crushed without God's support, - but unfortunately this reality is tough.
We acknowledge and agree with that, but God also places people and nations to assist. Who is to say if the US is not the instrument of God's will in doing what that Russians will not do, namely, supporting the EP.
quote:
Lily says: "This country moves steadily away from God." Then I wonder, where does Phanar move to with American support? If America has longterm, overall and sound Orthodox background? Does anyone believe that the U.S. government would care of Orthodoxy?
Russia is a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state. Does it care for Orthodoxy? Does Russia have a sound Orthodox background with 80 years of atheist Communism, heresies and heretical sects which have dogged its history for the last 400 years?
Say what you want about Greece, but it is the only country which has constitutionally enshrined the Orthodox Church and the Faith into its constitution as being the only religion of the Greeks. Russia certainly has not done such a thing.
quote:
(Sorry guys and ladies, it is Lenten time and I apologize for my frankness, nothing personal.)
The same here, however, remember that my original post was in response to certain outrageous comments made by Bryan. |
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Orthodox Unity...
