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parascheva1014
Moderator
USA
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2004 : 16:38:08
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I've seen it asserted else where that Antidoron is strictly for Orthodox and was originally intended for those who were unable to partake of communion for some reason. As a result one should fast before taking it and it should not be given to non orthodox guests.
This seems to be in contradiction with a number of parishes in which the common practice is to give antidoran to all, even visitors who are non orthodox.
Does anyone know or have any source material that could shed some light on what the practice of the church has been and if there is flexibility to change it? |
Edited by - parascheva1014 on 07/30/2004 11:35:32 |
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isaac
Starting Member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 19:51:53
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My source for the info I have concerning antidoron is two-fold. First, the website: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/antidoron.aspx
Also, I have heard from people visiting St. Gregory Palamas Monastery (GOA), that the abbot has the same policy.
But I also realize that the vast majority of Orthodox Churches in this country give blessed bread to non-Orthodox. This does not make it right, but I feel it is worth mentioning.
I now attend a Russian Church, where they only give blessed bread to Orthodox Christians. |
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parascheva1014
Moderator
USA
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2004 : 18:02:12
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The common practice of cannonical Orthodox Churches in America is to give antidoran to non Orthodox guests. If the laity and clergy accept this, is it okay to do so then? What doctrine is being diminished as a result? Is there Truth that is being contradicted by changing this practice? Might this not be a case of when in Rome...?
Orthodoxinfo.com which you are using as source material clearly states the following:
quote:
This site draws on written by a number of traditionalist Orthodox scholars. It is affiliated, however, with no jurisdiction or organization. Therefore, this center should in no way be confused with the Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, even though many of their writings are hosted on this site.
Now, if you will bear with me, I would like to make some remarks about the purpose and orientation of this Web site. It is my opinion, as well as that of my learned overseers, that the articles you will find herein are entirely faithful to Orthodox Tradition. It goes without saying that, in setting up this site, I do not presume to speak for the Orthodox Church. This is, in fact, the role of the entire Body—"...because the protector of religion is the very body of the Church, even the people themselves..." (Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs, 1848). I also remind my Orthodox brothers and sisters that it is a "fundamental ecclesiological truth that all members of the Church, in a certain way, constitute a continuous Synod of the People of God—since “‘Church’ is the name of an assembly or synod,” according to St. John Chrysostomos, which “is the champion of the Faith,” guards "the Faith which was once delivered," and has the right and the duty to judge synodal decisions." Furthermore, we recall "the teaching of St. Basil the Great, that 'the administration of the Churches is carried on by those to whom the chief offices in them have been entrusted, but their hands are strengthened by the laity.'" (Both citations are from Orthodoxy and the Ecumenical Movement, by Archimandrite Cyprian, p. 50). Therefore, if you are an Orthodox Christian it is ultimately up to you to learn about your faith and discern whether the articles posted on this site authentically reflect it. My non-Orthodox visitors will just have to trust me (wink, wink), for now at least...
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/about.aspx
I would consider this site a good and needed resource, but not an authority to call into question the Orthopraxis of most canonical Orthodox Churches in America on this particular issue.
As for the issue of the practice of the Monastery, there are a great many things that Monastaries practice which parishes do not. I believe that Priests and Bishops have some liberty to decide just how much of the practice of a Monastery is best in a parish. It makes sense to me that parishes and monasteries might not have exactly the same practice and niether could be wrong.
My boyfriend attends the OCA Cathedral in Washington DC. I have been there on more than a few occasions and the practice there is for guests to receive the antidoran at both the English and the Slavonic service. Perhaps your parish is unique in some way. You did say in another post that the parish you are attending is ROCOR. I am aware that ROCOR parishes embrace a different standard than other jurisdictions. Perhaps that accounts for the difference. |
Edited by - parascheva1014 on 07/29/2004 18:13:14 |
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Aristokles
Average Member
USA
931 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 04:08:01
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An interesting topic- antidoron- the "instead of gift". This seems to pop up eventually on all Orthodox fora.
I am not aware of any canons being violated by the distribution, with respect for its blessed nature, to non-Orthodox; nor for withholding it for that matter.
I grew up being taught that antidoron was given as a remembrance for the Early Church practise of a communal meal or feast for the faithful following the Divine Liturgy (my small Greek parish still has this communal meal). We Greeks call this "trapeza", literally, "table". By definition it would seem that only the faithful would have been present at "trapeza", but I wouldn't think catechumens would have been excluded then, although other non-Christians might.
Surely variance in practise, within and among Orthodox Churches, is allowed under that small "t" tradition thing. My rule: when in doubt, ask your bishop - the buck stops there.
{Edited for clarity}
Demetri |
Edited by - Aristokles on 08/02/2004 21:22:07 |
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n/a
deleted
52 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 18:36:02
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Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!
I understand that the Orthodox should be the ones to receive the antidoron .We have to keep in mind the scriptural verses of Mark 8:1-9. Many times giving the antidoron to a non-Orthodox is done so out of compassion and hospitality. We Orthodox have taken of the Mystical Supper while the non-Orthodox have not. Our services are long and Orthodox and non-Orthodox may have not had anything to eat. The least we can do is to offer them a blessed gift for having attended our divine service. I am reminded of Mark 6:37 "You give them something to eat." Imagine that the multitudes were not Orthodox Christians but Jews. Christ blessed and broke the loaves to be distributed to those who came and heard Him. That's my two cents for the day. |
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Ison
Starting Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 11:31:20
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This isn't directly related to the question at hand, but since we're talking about Antidoron:
I read something once at a very strict OCA parish: the bread distributed at the end of Communion (and in Slavic churches, taken with wine), in order to ensure all of the Gifts are consumed and don't remain in the mouth, differs from the bread distributed at the end of Liturgy. The bread at the end of Liturgy is for consumption by those who did not take Communion. If they did take Communion, the bread should be taken home and eaten throughout the week, a little at a time, to break the fast each morning with prayer.
I don't think there were any instructions as to the distribution of either kind of bread to non-Orthodox, but it seems to me the first kind, the kind we eat to completely consume the Gifts, should be reserved for those who have, in fact, consumed the Gifts. The other bread, which seems not only non-Eucharistic but unrelated to the Eucharist, could probably be distributed to non-Orthodox as well. I would equate it with the kissing of the hand cross, which comes at the same point in the service. |
Edited by - Ison on 08/03/2004 12:06:51 |
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isaac
Starting Member
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 12:08:01
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Actaully I think "Rum" refers to Roman. The Greeks did not call themselves Helleni ("Greeks"), but rather Romaions, or Romans. "Greek" was a slur and referred to pagans. This changed with Greek nationalism and independence from the Ottomans.
In the East, where there are some densely-populated monophysite areas that mistakenly call themselves "Orthodox," those actually belonging to the Eastern Orthodox Church call themselves "Rum Orthodox" or "Roman Orthodox." There is a good article about this on www.romanity.org if you're interested in checking it out.
As for Antidoron, I'm not saying its necessarily bad to give it out to non-Orthodox who visit our parishes... I'm just quoting something from orthodoxinfo.com, which may or may not be correct. Certainly we should view the pastoral decisions of the various Orthodox Episcopates with charity, and consider all sides. |
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n/a
deleted
52 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 14:09:28
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Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!
Greetimgs Isaac,
The word "Rum" refers to the word "Greek" in the Arabic language as you rightly stated.
In regards to the Oriental Orthodox calling themselves "Rum Orthodox" is not accurate since the words mean "Greek Orthodox". It is simply a matter of semantics. The Oriental Orthodox are Orthodox Christians not in full communion with the Chalcedians (us)on the hierarchally level. I do not think and believe they would appreciate being called monophysites since they do not believe and accept monophysitism. It is a matter of time when we both will share from the same Chalice on that particular level. It is not to say that there is no intercommunion on the laity level. We, the Chalcedians and non-Chalcedians, are much closer to one another than we would like to believe. In fact much closer to each other than Rome will ever be. |
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katherine2001
Starting Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 18:15:17
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| At the end of the liturgy in our OCA church (and every OCA church I've been in, as well as the Serbian church I've been in), the bread has been given to everyone who comes to venerate the cross, whether they did or didn't take communion. |
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katherine2001
Starting Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 18:18:07
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| In our mission, we don't have a resident priest, and a priest only comes once a month for vespers and liturgy (we have typica services the other weeks), and we all take Communion (as we have no catechumens at the moment). If only those who didn't take communion ate the antidoron, what would we do with the rest of it? |
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mat4mel
Junior Member
105 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2004 : 20:52:45
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I have been told that the bread and wine directly after communion is only for those who have communed...ie even Orthodox who have not communed should not recieve this. But the antidoron, which is the bread given after the veneration of the Holy Cross, and that is for anyone who desires it.
One quick note from experience...in our mission parish people are given antidoron by members and have frequently commented that they didn't think we allowed the non-Orthodox to commune with us!! So it should definately be explained to visitors that the antidoron is blessed bread, and not the Eucharist. |
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Kosmas Damianides
Starting Member
Australia
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2005 : 09:53:34
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Having been to the Holy Mountain I have seen Non-Orthodox pilgrims receive anti-doron. In Australia most priests will give antidoron to non-orthodox catechumens and even visitors who ask.
From what I have read, fasting before taking ant-doron is not in the canons of the Orthodox Church. Fasting for antidoron is simply a pious act and a tradition which gives respect to the blessed bread which is not the gift but instead-of-the-gift as the name suggests.
In the Early Church the un-consecrated food left over from the preparation of the Eucharist (ie wine and bread) was distributed to the poor and to those who were catechumens. There is also a canon of the Church which tells us that we must consume these leftovers at Church. These days the priest keeps the wine and blesses the left over bread as antidoron. We are even allowed to take it home.
Although I fast and give great respect to the antidoron bread given by the priest careful not to drop one single crumb, but when someone does not fast and is not Orthodox and approaches, I also remember this Biblical verse:
Jesus once said to a foreigner a Cannanite woman,
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"It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly."
If Jesus does not refuse His blessings to non-Jews then who are we to refuse His blessings to those who probably need the blessings more than us?
St Paul also says:
quote:
"Let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats; for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?..." (Romans 14:4)
"...if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9) |
Edited by - Kosmas Damianides on 07/24/2005 11:45:07 |
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parascheva1014
Moderator
USA
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2005 : 16:33:41
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| Well said |
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Michael
Starting Member
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2005 : 03:50:45
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Am I right in believing that the antidoron and the blessed bread in the Sarum Rite? I believe that the latter had some Eastern influences left over from the Celtic heritage of the West.
"Never let anybody tell that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies" - St John maximovitch. |
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Kosmas Damianides
Starting Member
Australia
34 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2005 : 08:57:08
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Dear Michael and others
What is the Sarum Rite? I have never heard of this before.
In the Greek Orthodox Church we have Ipsoma Antidoron and just normal Antidoron. Somethimes the priest will make all the Antidoron into Ipsoma Antidoron (this simply means that he lifts the left over bread), to be blessed above the Eucharist (body and blood) this is, I suppose, to add an extra blessing to the bread thus making it into a type of "super antidoron".
The obvious dangers of this are that more and more people forget about taking the GIFT and start taking the instead-of-the-Gift "super-antidoron" (or just antidoron). Which is sadly now happening more and more.
Many Church fathers speak against this practice of making oneself feel so unworthy to partake of the Eucharist that they only take it once or twice a year. This is a new phenomenon, since Holy Communion used to be taken on a regular basis in earlier times. If someone was not at CHurch (ie. because they were ill), the priest or bishop would actually go to their home to Commune them after the liturgy service had finished. This closeness and care for the flock seems to be in-practical these days due to the distance. But it is also the fault of us the laity, the common-folk who inadvertantly have raised the status of the antidoron to the point of it almost being equal to the Eucharist. This over-piety is not beneficial to our souls.
The Serbian Orthodox Church also has the antidoron after the service. This is the un-consecrated leftovers from the Eucharist preparation. The only difference is that instead of blessing the people with only his hand the priest will also hold a cross to remind us that it ia Christ's blessing not his.
Next time anyone has just antidoron they ought to think about why they are not having Holy Communion, why that have left Christ on the Altar table and are leaving him behind, not feel satisfied that they have received something alsmost equal to the GIFT.
In Christ
Kosmas
"...if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9) |
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Michael
Starting Member
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2005 : 12:30:32
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Dear Kosmas,
The Sarum Rite is one of the local variants of the Western Rite, of which there were many in mediaeval England. However, the Sarum Rite eventually spread to most of the English south, Ireland, Scotland and parts of the English North. It was a natural development of the Rite of Saint Gregory, which was one of the rites of the pre-schism Orthodox West, and which itself drew on some Celtic sources, which were influenced by some of the Eastern Liturgies.
Consequently, the Sarum Rite had a ceremony for the blessing of bread before Mass on Sundays, and this was left in church for the poor of the parish to help themselves to after the Mass and throughout the week. It is this that I thought might have the same origins as the antidoron.
The Sarum Rite is one of the rites used by the Orthodox since the Western Rite was restored to Canonical Orthodoxy.
"Never let anybody tell that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies" - St John Maximovitch. |
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Should Antidoron be given to Non Orthodox guests
