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spiltteeth
Starting Member

20 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2010 :  13:44:23  Show Profile  Send spiltteeth an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by macacic

Cuba has it's own hunger issues.

quote:
The main public health problem is anaemia, with a prevalence in the east of 56,7% among children under the age of 24 months and 20,1% amongst those between the ages of 2 and 5.

There are a number of reasons for this, the main ones being: i) inadequate food intake; ii) parasitic or infectious diseases; iii) dearth of iron-rich food; iv) difficulties in access to food; v) insufficient knowledge of anemia; vi) inadequate use of dietary supplements; vii) deficiencies in water and sanitation; y viii) inadequate hygiene practices, which inhibits iron absorption.




I don't doubt it! Besides pressuring trade embargoes by Americas didn't hurricanes recently wipe out 30% !!! of their food supply?

Again, if your trying to tie this with their economic practices I'm very open-minded, being no fan of Cuba; but, barring natural disaster, socialism has been a boon to Cuba's hungry.
Especially in the first decade or so, after which America's policies of isolating Cuba forced it to take some very desperate measures.

The main reason people go hungry in Cuba is not the economic system but seems manifestly america's effort to -as Bush sr once put it - of 'rationing Cuba's hunger pangs' by blocking other nations trade with cuba.
Really, its an utter miracle america hasn't starved Cuba entirely to death.

See article http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/special_reports/Rationing_whets_Cubas_hunger_pangs.html

Anyway, I'm openminded how you think the socialistic economy provides less food than a capitalistic one would.

Edited by - spiltteeth on 09/13/2010 13:49:03
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spiltteeth
Starting Member

20 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2010 :  13:46:15  Show Profile  Send spiltteeth an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by macacic

For the full info on the myth of Anthropogenic Global Warming, check out www.junkscience.com.



Well, I've perused said website up and down and can see no data contradicting the fact that the earth is globally warming.
Could you post the relevant data? Perhaps I'm a bit thick.
Thanks.
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Aristokles
Senior Member

USA
1096 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2010 :  11:50:56  Show Profile  Send Aristokles a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
There is also no data supporting that so-called global warming is man-made. IF it exists (and that is a BIG "if") it has solar causes. Plenty of REAL science to support that.
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spiltteeth
Starting Member

20 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2010 :  12:17:27  Show Profile  Send spiltteeth an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aristokles

There is also no data supporting that so-called global warming is man-made. IF it exists (and that is a BIG "if") it has solar causes. Plenty of REAL science to support that.



If you -or anyone - knows where this real science is hidden and could post the relevant data and scientific interpretation,
i would appreciate it.

It certainly exists :


• Average temperatures have climbed 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit (0.8 degree Celsius) around the world since 1880, much of this in recent decades, according to NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies.

• The rate of warming is increasing. The 20th century's last two decades were the hottest in 400 years and possibly the warmest for several millennia, according to a number of climate studies. And the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) reports that 11 of the past 12 years are among the dozen warmest since 1850.

• The Arctic is feeling the effects the most. Average temperatures in Alaska, western Canada, and eastern Russia have risen at twice the global average, according to the multinational Arctic Climate Impact Assessment report compiled between 2000 and 2004.

• Arctic ice is rapidly disappearing, and the region may have its first completely ice-free summer by 2040 or earlier. Polar bears and indigenous cultures are already suffering from the sea-ice loss.

• Glaciers and mountain snows are rapidly melting—for example, Montana's Glacier National Park now has only 27 glaciers, versus 150 in 1910.


And the IPCC report, based on the work of some 2,500 scientists in more than 130 countries, concluded that humans have caused all or most of the current planetary warming.

There is a huge mass of data and I personally have no idea how to properly interpret it, which is why I rely on peer reviewed scientific literature, not just some guy with a website.
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macacic
Administrator

USA
2414 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2010 :  13:12:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Back to the original thread, someone forwarded these quotes from Saint John Chrysostom: On Living Simply, Sermon XLIII. (HT: American Orthodox Institute Observer, et al.):

"Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm.

"Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first — and then they will joyfully share their wealth."
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macacic
Administrator

USA
2414 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2010 :  22:07:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spiltteeth

The 20th century's last two decades were the hottest in 400 years and possibly the warmest for several millennia, according to a number of climate studies.

No, it's not as warm globally now as it was during the Medieval Warm Period (left off of the notorious 'hockey stick' chart), when vineyards grew in England, and most likely not as warm as it was during the Roman Warm Period.

If you follow some of the "Global Warming" link at the web site where I had pointed you, you'll see a great deal of peer-reviewed science which goes against the anthropogenic "Global Warming" theory.
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spiltteeth
Starting Member

20 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2010 :  22:57:47  Show Profile  Send spiltteeth an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by macacic

quote:
Originally posted by spiltteeth

The 20th century's last two decades were the hottest in 400 years and possibly the warmest for several millennia, according to a number of climate studies.

No, it's not as warm globally now as it was during the Medieval Warm Period (left off of the notorious 'hockey stick' chart), when vineyards grew in England, and most likely not as warm as it was during the Roman Warm Period.

If you follow some of the "Global Warming" link at the web site where I had pointed you, you'll see a great deal of peer-reviewed science which goes against the anthropogenic "Global Warming" theory.



I have now twice very earnestly viewed that website and cannot find ANY data contradicting global warming, if you are intent on keeping this science your secret then I cannot respond, I'll ask for a second time that you post any scientific conclusions.

The 'Medieval Warm Period' was not global (unless the secret data you hold says elsewhere) but was confined to large part of North Atlantic, Southern Greenland, the Eurasian Arctic, and parts of North America.
Central Eurasia, northwestern North America, and possibly parts of South Atlantic, exhibit anomalous coolness.

Since there is a mass of data on that period, and I am not qualified to interpret what it might mean. I will quote

A 2009 study by Michael Mann et al. finds that the MWP shows
quote:
"warmth that matches or exceeds that of the past decade in some regions, but which falls well below recent levels globally"


The IPCC Third Assessment Report
quote:
"... current evidence does not support globally synchronous periods of anomalous cold or warmth over this time frame, and the conventional terms of 'Little Ice Age' and 'Medieval Warm Period' appear to have limited utility in describing trends in hemispheric or global mean temperature changes in past centuries"


Solomon, Susan Snell; Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change

quote:
Despite substantial uncertainties, especially for the period prior to 1600 when data are scarce, the warmest period prior to the 20th century very likely occurred between 950 and 1100, but temperatures were probably between 0.1°C and 0.2°C below the 1961 to 1990 mean and significantly below the level shown by instrumental data after 1980. The heterogeneous nature of climate during the ‘Medieval Warm Period’ is illustrated by the wide spread of values exhibited by the individual records
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spiltteeth
Starting Member

20 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2010 :  23:02:52  Show Profile  Send spiltteeth an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by macacic

Back to the original thread, someone forwarded these quotes from Saint John Chrysostom: On Living Simply, Sermon XLIII. (HT: American Orthodox Institute Observer, et al.):

"Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm.

"Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first — and then they will joyfully share their wealth."



Although that is very important, there are injustices that come from systemic causes.
If we had waited for men to change their hearts we'd still have slavery.
But slavery was an institutional evil.

Our PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW has written about social justice in his latest book : Encountering the Mystery: Understanding Orthodox Christianity Today
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macacic
Administrator

USA
2414 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2010 :  08:18:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spiltteeth


I have now twice very earnestly viewed that website and cannot find ANY data contradicting global warming, if you are intent on keeping this science your secret then I cannot respond, I'll ask for a second time that you post any scientific conclusions.



"Two years ago, William Livingston and Matthew Penn of the National Solar Observatory in Tucson, in a controversial paper that contradicted conventional wisdom and upset global warming theorists, predicted that sunspots could more or less disappear after 2015, possibly indicating the onset of another Little Ice Age."

Read more: http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/09/16/lawrence-solomon-chilling-evidence/#ixzz0zmuMBXzT

Figure 1 shows the extent of Antarctic sea ice for 2010 up to September 10. Ice extent has been about 1 million square kilometers above the 1979 – 2000 average. Notice the 2009 ice amount was above average as well. This matches reports of record cold temperatures around the Southern Hemisphere. On July 27, 2010 we learned from Peru, “Temperatures plummeted to below -20°C prompting the government to declare a state of emergency for nearly half of the country Friday.”

Read more: http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/27726

CA Climate Change is Caused by the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, Not by Carbon Dioxide: The analysis of minimum temperature data using the PDO as a reference baseline has been demonstrated as a powerful technique for climate trend evaluation. This technique may be extended to other regions using the appropriate local ocean surface temperature reference. The analysis found no evidence for CO2 induced warming trends in the California data. This confirms prior ‘Null Hypothesis’ work that it is impossible for a 100 ppm increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration to cause any climate change.

Read more: http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/originals/pacific_decadal.html

There's even more available there; just remember the site works as a repository of links to articles from a wide variety of sources.

I even found a link concerning how socialism manages to serve all of the people so well: Step 1, reduce the overall number.

quote:
Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.

Speaking at The Independent Woodstock Literary Festival, Frank Dikötter, a Hong Kong-based historian, said he found that during the time that Mao was enforcing the Great Leap Forward in 1958, in an effort to catch up with the economy of the Western world, he was responsible for overseeing "one of the worst catastrophes the world has ever known".

Mr Dikötter, who has been studying Chinese rural history from 1958 to 1962, when the nation was facing a famine, compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years; the worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 million. (Arifa Akbar, Independent)


Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html
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spiltteeth
Starting Member

20 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2010 :  13:30:26  Show Profile  Send spiltteeth an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by macacic

quote:
Originally posted by spiltteeth


I have now twice very earnestly viewed that website and cannot find ANY data contradicting global warming, if you are intent on keeping this science your secret then I cannot respond, I'll ask for a second time that you post any scientific conclusions.



"Two years ago, William Livingston and Matthew Penn of the National Solar Observatory in Tucson, in a controversial paper that contradicted conventional wisdom and upset global warming theorists, predicted that sunspots could more or less disappear after 2015, possibly indicating the onset of another Little Ice Age."

Read more: http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/09/16/lawrence-solomon-chilling-evidence/#ixzz0zmuMBXzT

Figure 1 shows the extent of Antarctic sea ice for 2010 up to September 10. Ice extent has been about 1 million square kilometers above the 1979 – 2000 average. Notice the 2009 ice amount was above average as well. This matches reports of record cold temperatures around the Southern Hemisphere. On July 27, 2010 we learned from Peru, “Temperatures plummeted to below -20°C prompting the government to declare a state of emergency for nearly half of the country Friday.”

Read more: http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/27726

CA Climate Change is Caused by the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, Not by Carbon Dioxide: The analysis of minimum temperature data using the PDO as a reference baseline has been demonstrated as a powerful technique for climate trend evaluation. This technique may be extended to other regions using the appropriate local ocean surface temperature reference. The analysis found no evidence for CO2 induced warming trends in the California data. This confirms prior ‘Null Hypothesis’ work that it is impossible for a 100 ppm increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration to cause any climate change.

Read more: http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/originals/pacific_decadal.html

There's even more available there; just remember the site works as a repository of links to articles from a wide variety of sources.

I even found a link concerning how socialism manages to serve all of the people so well: Step 1, reduce the overall number.

quote:
Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.

Speaking at The Independent Woodstock Literary Festival, Frank Dikötter, a Hong Kong-based historian, said he found that during the time that Mao was enforcing the Great Leap Forward in 1958, in an effort to catch up with the economy of the Western world, he was responsible for overseeing "one of the worst catastrophes the world has ever known".

Mr Dikötter, who has been studying Chinese rural history from 1958 to 1962, when the nation was facing a famine, compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years; the worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 million. (Arifa Akbar, Independent)


Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html



I'm afraid 2 of those articles were not written by scientists, or even by people with scientific education. AND much of the data was REJECTED by peer review AND was rejected by scientific journals.

All the scientists look at the data, study it, and confirm global warming.
Then people with no scientific background look at some parts of the data, and reach a different conclusion.

Would you go to a journalist to get a heart transplant....or - a doctor?

So I looked at the data,

1) as regards the first link, William Livingston and Matthew Penn's highly "controversial" and speculative predictions have thus far been wrong.
ALSO IT WAS REJECTED IN PEER REVIEW AND THE AUTHORS ACCEPTED the rejection.
SCIENCE magazine would not even publish it !

2) Article 2 says nothing aginst the globalk warming data - its about media bias. Did you even read it? It rants aginst what "they" (who? the article doesn't even meantion) say about glaciers:
quote:
They claim, incorrectly, that an increase in glaciers is a sign of global warming.


I have no idea who 'they' are, is he thinking about a scientific paper? We'll never know !

3) I've read article three, which is not about global warming but the climate in California so I have no idea why you posted it, but anyway it says CA climate change is caused by the ocean, not co2.
Now I'm not a scientist, but CA is kinda right next to the ocean so... its pretty obvious the ocean effects climate....
From the article :
quote:
When this CO2 flux is added to the daily flux balance with fluctuations that can exceed 1100 W.m-2, it becomes clear that there can
be no CO2 ‘signature’ in the MSAT record.

ok
quote:
This confirms prior ‘Null Hypothesis’ work that it is impossible for
a 100 ppm increase in atmospheric CO concentration to cause any climate change.

ok

If you know of any scientist who had used this data to make confirmed predictions about global warming please share it!
Otherwise I see nothing that would refute or call into question global warming, heck, it was even included in the included in the IPCC report. PDO physically cannot cause a long-term global temperature trend.
I'll quote a SCIENTIST :
Professor Horst Malberg, (Editor: Institut für Meteorologie 2009 :
quote:
Natural oscillations like PDO simply move heat around from oceans to air and vice-versa. They don't have the ability to either create or retain heat, therefore they're not capable of causing a long-term warming trend, just short-term temperature variations. Basically they're an example of internal variability, not an external radiative forcing. If PDO were responsible for warming the surface, the oceans would be cooling, which is not the case.

These results are expected. The long term warming trend is a result of an energy imbalance caused primarily by an increase of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. In contrast, the PDO is an internal process and does not increase or decrease the total energy in the climate system.
.”

You've still not been able to offer ONE ! peer reviewed scientific conclusion that even questions, let alone, refutes ANY global warming data.

This is like getting all your information about Christianity from Bill Mahr or some atheist !
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macacic
Administrator

USA
2414 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2010 :  14:07:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Several are linked from here: http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=2158072e-802a-23ad-45f0-274616db87e6
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spiltteeth
Starting Member

20 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2010 :  15:15:34  Show Profile  Send spiltteeth an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by macacic

Several are linked from here: http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=2158072e-802a-23ad-45f0-274616db87e6



Are you referring to the 255 pg report by a journalist who appears to have gathered random quotes from scientists, these quotes containing nothing but opinion and data completely out of context?

I don't plan on reading the entire 255 pg 'report',
for a fourth time, perhaps you could just point to the scientific studies - perhaps the specific 2 or 3 - that convinced you that the IPCC report, based on the work of some 2,500 scientists in more than 130 countries,was incorrect.

This is getting ridiculous, you keep pointing me to ridiculous sites and your wasting quite a bit of my time.

I thought you were serious. Why don't you just say -'look in the internet..." Do you actually have reasons for doubting global warming? Or is it simply distasteful to you and your willing to believe any crackpot with a blog as long as they agree with you?

Have you no dignity or care for Truth? It seems you made up your mind and then went looking for 'proof' afterhand!

Personally, I find Global warming threat to be monstrously overblown, and there is not even a scientific consensus that the earth is round ! (see flat earth society) so there will always be some dissenters, but How much longer do you expect me to keep sifting through these absurd links of yours until I find something actually substantial?

Please don't waste my time and reply unless you have something substantial to say.
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Aristokles
Senior Member

USA
1096 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2010 :  09:26:50  Show Profile  Send Aristokles a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Bah. Beck wrote a book about arguing with certain people.
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macacic
Administrator

USA
2414 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2010 :  09:37:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spiltteeth

quote:
Originally posted by macacic

Several are linked from here: http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=2158072e-802a-23ad-45f0-274616db87e6


Are you referring to the 255 pg report by a journalist who appears to have gathered random quotes from scientists, these quotes containing nothing but opinion and data completely out of context?


No, I was referring to the links embedded within there containing the sort of reports you keep asking for, such as this one: http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf.

There were so many referenced, I figured you'd want to have some reference to as many as is possible.

Now mind your manners. People can disagree without being disagreeable.

There's no need to get personal, particularly on an Orthodox Christian forum.

Edited by - macacic on 09/22/2010 10:25:34
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Justina
Starting Member

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2011 :  08:22:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chrevbel

quote:
On the other hand capitalism, especially like what we see in the US today, which has its roots in individual wealth building, was deeply frowned upon by our Lord (read the Gospel according to Matthew for a very clear picture on Christ's opinions concerning material wealth).

I believe this is overly simplistic. In the parable of the talents, our Lord clearly indicated his approval of the man who put his master's capital at risk, investing it and producing the largest profit. If that isn't a textbook description and endorsement of capitalism, I don't know what is.



Doesn't read like that to me. It is merely an example. Jesus Christ
says He will come "like a thief in the night," to illustrate
the unexpectedness. (not the secrecy like some rapturists think.)
Does that mean He endorsed robbery or burglary? He also noted that
the cunning steward, about to be fired and looking to build a base
of indebted persons to draw on so he wouldn't be out in the street,
told those who owed his master to rewrite their debt as half. For
this cleverness he was commended, and Christ said we should use the
things of this world to make friends for the Kingdom of Heaven or
something like that. Is that an endorsement of mismanaging funds?
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