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Athanasios Palamas
Starting Member
19 Posts |
 Posted - 07/21/2006 : 18:16:47
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You might think this is a weird topic for an Orthodox forum but I think this is a question that many Orthodox face and may not bring it up too much to other people.
This is another topic that I'd like to ask my fellow Orthodox Christians. I've heard people come to different conclusions in the past among Orthodox. This is a big topic for the nation as a whole because more and more states are allowing law abiding people to carry guns, I think the numer is up to 48 or 49 states now.
I will go ahead and make exemptions for people in police work and in the military, I don't think many would disagree with that right?
But my question is do you guys think it would be wrong for an Orthodox Christian, who is a regular citizen, to carry a gun/weapon if his or her only reason for going so is self-defense, defense of friend's/family, others?
I've heard and read from Orthodox clergy that it is okay to own gun/weapons as long as "you aren't planning on killing somebody" but I've never gotten an answer about carrying them.
Thanks
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shanmo9
Junior Member
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 19:19:20
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With the way the world is today, I think it's a good idea.
I don't think I could kill to defend myself, but if my family was in danger, I would not hesitate to defend them. Put yourself in the position of the Orthdox in Kosovo. Perhaps if they were armed, there would be less persecution.
They certainly can't depend on the civil authorities or the UN to defend them. |
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Baylumzass
Junior Member
335 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 19:46:36
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Some moderns in the Orthodox communion are under the impression that Christianity is a passivist religion. I don't believe that. Furthermore the liberation of the Church by St. Constantine
was achieved by the sword.
I have no problem with defending myself with a gun or knife, or club, or fists. The Eastern Orthodox world has had to do just that every since Islam raised it's ugly head. The time for non violent resistance is when we are tested as martyrs for Christ. Then we are to passively give testimony to our faith even if it costs us our life.
I have had to defend my family from a gun wielding idiot, and many times have had my home broken into in the late hours of the night. In all instances I was armed and willing. Fortunately the criminals I dealt with fled so I didn't have to shoot them.
David, Moses, Abraham, and the Maccabees give clear testimony that violence can sometimes be just.
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Athanasios Palamas
Starting Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 20:13:51
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Just to make my personal opinion clear. I think that it is okay, even an honor as an Orthodox Chriatian to be able to defend oneself, family/freinds, others!
I carried legally as a civilian, but now, since I'm in a form of "military service" my state affords me special "rights" when it comes to this.
That is to say, in my state, regular citizens, cannot carry a weapon to a church, but now I can because of the "military service."
Before I was in "military service" I actually broke the law a few times and had my gun on me while in church. I just couldn't bare it if some crazy or evil person tried to harm people during the liturgy. It has happened and I want to be able to defend the "church" if something like that happens. I just make sure that it cannot be seen! I really despise the fact that my state, and many others, will not legally allow citizens to carry a weapon while at church. You either are defensless, or you are forced to break the law in these states.
I know, I know.... you might be thinking who would want to be armed while at one of the Divine Services? Criminals do not care and they will strike at times you least expect it. I've even heard a rumor about a crazy person who came into an Orthodox Church, during the Divine Liturgy and shot the priest.
I think that law abiding, Orthodox Christians, should be able to defend themselves from this type of person.
With the world the way it is: Crazy people, anti-Christian people, Militant Muslims, etc. I feel the need to defend myself, etc.
As a second question, while were on this topic, what about actually carrying into the church? |
Edited by - Athanasios Palamas on 07/21/2006 20:18:00 |
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smallwhisper
Junior Member
102 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2006 : 20:46:28
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Sorry, I meant to delete that post!
John-Seraphim |
Edited by - smallwhisper on 07/22/2006 00:46:00 |
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Lover of Monasticism
Average Member
USA
919 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 00:04:29
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I've not read this thread at all (forgive me), but here is what I know: Priests (and those intending to be priests) are canonically forbidden to be hunters and fishermen. That being said, what else would they need a gun for?
As for the rest of the populous, it's up to the spiritual father.
Kyrie Iesou Christe eleison me. |
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Athanasios Palamas
Starting Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 04:08:54
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First of all, all of the cannons are not enforced...the Patriarch is still Patriarch even though he prayed with the Pope....This is the modern world. I'm not defending that practice, though I am making a point. You can find cannons that are in conflict with each other.
Secondly, so a priest cannot hunt or fish for food?...give me a break. That is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard in my life. The Apostles were known fishermen and so are many monks of the Holy Mountain.
If a priest wants to defend his family why couldn't he? Many monks of Greece actually had guns and protected themselves from the Turks. There is a famous Greek War of Independence hero, I don't remember his name, but he was actually a deacon and fought. Now I admit, it would be a little abnormal for a priest to carry a gun now. Could he not have one to teach his sons marksmanship, etc. or must he raise them to hoplophobic?
Thirdly, St. Peter carried a sword.
Fourth, Greece, with the Church of Greece' blessing, makes all males, even candidadates for the priesthood go into the military. I'm sure they shoot guns there. |
Edited by - Athanasios Palamas on 07/22/2006 04:12:24 |
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Lover of Monasticism
Average Member
USA
919 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 07:08:57
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If you don't like it, don't become a priest. You've got the wrong attitude. Sure, the canons are guidelines and not absolutes, but as one intending to enter the Priesthood your attitude towards the canons should be one of readiness to accept, not one of "Oh, that sounds stupid! I don't like that one." And it's not like a priest can't, you know, go to the store and buy his food.
Kyrie Iesou Christe eleison me. |
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Dantheman
New Member
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 10:52:36
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I am still relatively new to Orthodoxy. I believe that I read somewhere that if one were to kill a fellow human being that that person would be denied Communion. Many, many years ago priests would not ride horses in a village to avoid accidentally killing someone (apparently horse and pedestrian accidents were common).
Please inform and correct me if I am mistaken.
That being said, I often carry a firearm in the performance of my duties as a correctional officer. I also carry off duty, but usually don't carry in the church. I see nothing wrong with using deadly force to defend oneself or others life or from grevious bodily harm.
I would feel horrible if I could no longer recieve Communion...but a sacrifice I would have to make if called upon to prevent the escape of a convicted felon or defend and preserve the lives my family or those of members of society. I pray that I will never be faced with a situation like that...
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Lover of Monasticism
Average Member
USA
919 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 14:47:54
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You are correct. And that tradition continues today in the form of priests having others drive them around, particularly in mostly Othodox countries.
There are different levels of murder, but murder is murder, including self defense. A famous theologian explained it to me like this: If I come with the intention of killing you, and you kill me in self defense, you may have sent me to Hades. On the other hand, if I succeed in killing you, that is a lower form of martyrdom, and you will likely go to Heaven, thus leaving me alive giving me time to hopefully repent.
it's all based on humility and love.
Byzantine soldiers still had to do penances when they killed someone in battle, and were not admitted to commune for various times alloted by their spiritual fathers. They same goes for you: while you may be protecting people with that gun, and indeed may be saving many more lives by taking out one, thus doing something righteous, at the same time it is still murder and thusly a sin, and you would need to go to confession and accept what ever penance your spiritual father may give you.
Kyrie Iesou Christe eleison me. |
Edited by - Lover of Monasticism on 07/22/2006 14:51:07 |
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shanmo9
Junior Member
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 15:57:42
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Many times in the Old Testament God ordered the Israelis to take a life or kill their enemies.. If they disobeyed, that was also a sin. A law enforcement officier or soldier defending his country should not be condemned for doing the right thing. I know a priest who is serving with our troops in Afgahnistan now--I don't think he would deny the Holy Eucharist to any Orthodox soldier who lawfully carried out his duty.
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macacic
Moderator
USA
1968 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2006 : 07:46:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Lover of Monasticism
...Priests (and those intending to be priests) are canonically forbidden to be hunters and fishermen. That being said, what else would they need a gun for?
Skeet or target shooting, sporting clays, the biathalon. |
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macacic
Moderator
USA
1968 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2006 : 07:49:36
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Considering that Peter carried a sword and Christ never told him to get rid of it, I have no qualms about carrying a concealed weapon.
The number of states with a "shall issue" concealed carried permit law is around 39 currently. None of them have turned into the "Wild West." |
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Lover of Monasticism
Average Member
USA
919 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2006 : 09:57:01
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Theology aside, how can you guys be okay with everyone carrying around concealed weapons? I mean...seriously! Unless you're a police officer, carrying around a gun doesn't seem very nice, does it? It implies that you intend to use it if things get nasty. And if your excuse is that it's for protection, just what have you done to make so many enemies?
I'm kinda baffuled by this.
Kyrie Iesou Christe eleison me. |
Edited by - Lover of Monasticism on 07/25/2006 15:17:20 |
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Dantheman
New Member
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2006 : 10:41:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Lover of Monasticism
Theology aside, how can you guys be okay with everyone carrying around concealed weapons? I mean...seriously! Unless you're a police officer, carrying around a gun doesn't seem very nice, does it? It implies that you intend to you is if things get nasty. And if your excuse is that it's for protection, just what have you done to make so many enemies?
I'm kinda baffuled by this.
Kyrie Iesou Christe eleison me.
It's not that any individual has made a number of enemies. It is more defending oneself against a few members of a society that has morally broken down.
I live in what used to be a rural area 80 miles north of NYC. In the last 2 months there have been 5 shootings in areas that my family and I drive through or shop at. Drug related.
There was even an attempted child abduction in a family's drive way as a 10 yr old boy got off the school bus on the last day of school.
This was on a rural road not more than 1/4 of a mile from my home. The attempted abductor was a stranger. Thank God the bus driver waited for the boy to enter the house before leaving. That allowed the boy to be able to run to the bus for help.
Even if I wasn't a law enforcemnet officer, under the changing conditions in my area...I would still carry a firearm.
The police usually show up after the crime was committed and a citizen has already been victimized. I don't want my family or I ever to be victims of a crime.
I live with a sword...not by a sword; and pray not to die by one.
I pray for the best and prepare for the worst. |
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Reader
Moderator
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2006 : 11:36:47
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Dear LOM,
You said earlier, "Priests (and those intending to be priests) are canonically forbidden to be hunters and fishermen." Please site for me the source of this canon. Thank you.
Steve |
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Carrying of guns/weapons?
