| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Yiorgos75
Junior Member
Australia
461 Posts |
 Posted - 03/09/2010 : 01:19:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by ICXCNIKA
That is true but none of the Ancient Patriarchates are doing well. They are all few in number and in hostile environments. But I think the Antiochians probably have the advantage since they are predominantly arabs so I think they would share the same language and culture. I don't know if this is the case or not. Is the church in Turkey using Greek exclusively? Or are some services being done in Turkish? It would nice to see some of these turkish orthodox here return as priests to evangelize to their own people.
News Flash. Turkey (altough nominally secular) is still an Islamic nation.
That means that there can be no active missionary work because of existing proselytisation laws. Also, the penalty for a Muslim apostasises away from Islam is death. So any muslim person who converts to Christianity can be put to death legitimately by any other Muslim should that apostate not repent and return to Islam. |
 |
|
|
ICXCNIKA
Starting Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 01:46:32
|
| Contrary to popular opinion political pressure isnt going to change Turkish policies. That society can only be changed from within. We can't accept the status quo. Greece,USA, or Russia will not be able to intervene to save the EP. SO what other options are there... |
|
|
|
Yiorgos75
Junior Member
Australia
461 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 06:50:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by ICXCNIKA
Contrary to popular opinion political pressure isnt going to change Turkish policies. That society can only be changed from within. We can't accept the status quo. Greece,USA, or Russia will not be able to intervene to save the EP. SO what other options are there...
That's easy. Since we can't change the country from without and we can't change it from within (because of the Islamic ideal) then the Turks will just keep strangling the Patriarchate until it no longer exists!
Meanwhile, we can all sit idly by and let the Devil do his job by killing off a whole Patriarchate...because, you know, change can't be effected from without!
Now, stepping back from all sarcastic comments, I think there ARE things that can be done in order to pressure Turkey into changing the status quo. The European Union is putting pressure on Turkey to reform its freedom of religion laws and grant greater latitude to Christian groups. France and Austria have been particularly vocal.
The US can certainly help, although it will have to balance up its foreign policy issues concerning the use of Turkish airspace for airstrikes against Iraq with obvious human rights violations which occur in Turkey.
By and large the greatest proponent for change could be Russia. Until now, Russia has remained unusualy silent. This can be read two ways:
(1) They are happy to see the EP weakened because it gives them the political clout within the Orthodox world to advocate a Russian hegemony within the ecclesiatical circles (something that I sincerely hope is not the case) or
(2) they are resigned to the fact that at some point they will enter into a war with Turkey as has been foretold by numerous Orthodox saints throughout the Orthodox world. Given Vladimir Putin's (whom I admire immensely) close association with the Church, I would like to be believe that it is the latter rather than the former. |
Edited by - Yiorgos75 on 03/09/2010 07:02:58 |
|
|
|
macacic
Moderator
USA
1968 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 10:07:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Yiorgos75
...they are resigned to the fact that at some point they will enter into a war with Turkey as has been foretold by numerous Orthodox saints throughout the Orthodox world.
I believe they are also resigned to the fact that they must wait on the West to support them against Turkey otherwise Russia will end up fighting both of them...again! |
|
|
|
ICXCNIKA
Starting Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 12:18:18
|
| Well we know the Western powers will not attack Turkey. They could have stopped Turkey from invading Cyprus but they didn't. Russia could theoretically fight Turkey but their would need to be a valid reason other than religious or payback. The Tsar is dead and there would need to be support among the people. The EU is in very weak shape with several member states on the verge of economic collapse and those that are in good financial shape said they will not be bailing them out. So many are wondering if it will even continue to exist or just be another failed experiment. As to the russian church wanting hegemony lol you must be joking if you think that such a concept can exist in the church. There is no hegemony for the MP or the EP or anyone else. The MP is in charge of its possessions and the EP is in charge of its possessions. I don't how much "clout" either has outside of their own jurisdictions. |
|
|
|
Yiorgos75
Junior Member
Australia
461 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 18:31:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by ICXCNIKA
As to the russian church wanting hegemony lol you must be joking if you think that such a concept can exist in the church.
I am merely positing different views and how the facts can be read. Unless you are completely oblivious to it, there is a certain subtle (and sometimes not to sublte!) tension between the two Patriarchates.
I certainly do not believe that such a concept of hegemony can exist within the Church, but it certainly can exist within the hearts of men. The church of Rome is an excellent example of a church wanting to increase its political power base. Please note that I am not equating the MP with Rome or any other heretics. What I am doing is talking about political and social possibilities. Looking at the problem from different angles. I don't think we should be blind to possibilities.
quote:
There is no hegemony for the MP or the EP or anyone else. The MP is in charge of its possessions and the EP is in charge of its possessions.
I certainly agree that amongst equals, there is no higher or lower. Unfortunately, sometimes we humans let other factors get in the way. Whether it is from Moscow or Constantinople, pride and ego can be a dangerous thing. I must confess that I always thought it quite bizarre that the MP had a metropolitan in charge of "foreign relations". Most of the other Patriarchies have a "secretary" to the Synod who handles all incoming inquiries and dialogue and reports to Synod and Patriarch. You must admit, that having a dedicated "foreign office" is quite strange...unless of course you think I am reading too much into it.
quote:
...I don't how much "clout" either has outside of their own jurisdictions...
Are you for real? The MP has an immense level of political power given the rising of Russia politically and its stable economic growth. On the back of that political power, the MP has been able to build Churches in places which it would never have originally been able to. For example, Pyongyang or Singapore. Singapore is a particularly interesting example. Singapore comes under the direct jurisdiction of the EP. Despite that and without permision from the local bishop, the MP decided to set up a Russian Church and lobbied the government for land (a scarce commodity in Singapore). This was done of the proviso of catering to the Russian immigrant population in that is working in Singapore, however, the church is apparently been undertaking missionary work which involves flock stealing from the existing EP parish.The long story short, the Church in Singapore has now been split between Russians and locals who adhere to the EP.
Mind you, there probably has been a level of that occurring with the EP when they entered into the Czech Republic and re-ordered the state of the Church there and in numerous other places within the old Soviet bloc. Which (justifiably) would have raised the ire of the MP!
On the flip side (and to balance the argument), the EP also has a level of political clout given the large immigrant populations of Greeks around the world who actively and vocally support the EP. The differnce however, is that the EP's political power comes through integration within existing foreign politcal power structures. The MP's political power comes via being aligned with a world super power.
Which one is worse, which one is better, take your pick! But please remember that I am only stating these things as dispassionately as possible. I am just engaging in open discussion and I welcome any other view points that wish to disagree. |
Edited by - Yiorgos75 on 03/09/2010 18:33:05 |
|
|
|
ICXCNIKA
Starting Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 20:35:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Yiorgos75
quote:
Originally posted by ICXCNIKA
I am merely positing different views and how the facts can be read. Unless you are completely oblivious to it, there is a certain subtle (and sometimes not to sublte!) tension between the two Patriarchates.
I agree there is. Nor is this new in the church. Whether it was Alexandria vs Antioch or Rome vs EP or the EP vs MP.
I certainly do not believe that such a concept of hegemony can exist within the Church, but it certainly can exist within the hearts of men.
I agree.
The church of Rome is an excellent example of a church wanting to increase its political power base. Please note that I am not equating the MP with Rome or any other heretics. What I am doing is talking about political and social possibilities. Looking at the problem from different angles. I don't think we should be blind to possibilities.
And this is why we have local churches. When one patriarchate goes awry it has several sister churches to call it back to reason.
I certainly agree that amongst equals, there is no higher or lower. Unfortunately, sometimes we humans let other factors get in the way. Whether it is from Moscow or Constantinople, pride and ego can be a dangerous thing.
Again I agree.
I must confess that I always thought it quite bizarre that the MP had a metropolitan in charge of "foreign relations". Most of the other Patriarchies have a "secretary" to the Synod who handles all incoming inquiries and dialogue and reports to Synod and Patriarch. You must admit, that having a dedicated "foreign office" is quite strange...unless of course you think I am reading too much into it.
I wouldn't read to much into that.
[The MP has an immense level of political power given the rising of Russia politically and its stable economic growth. On the back of that political power, the MP has been able to build Churches in places which it would never have originally been able to. For example, Pyongyang or Singapore. Singapore is a particularly interesting example. Singapore comes under the direct jurisdiction of the EP.
What do you base this claim on? Russia claims that North Aerica fell under it's jurisdiction. You are now saying that the EP claims Singapore under it's jurisdiction maybe its just another case where we can't agree.
Despite that and without permision from the local bishop, the MP decided to set up a Russian Church and lobbied the government for land (a scarce commodity in Singapore). This was done of the proviso of catering to the Russian immigrant population in that is working in Singapore, however, the church is apparently been undertaking missionary work which involves flock stealing from the existing EP parish.The long story short, the Church in Singapore has now been split between Russians and locals who adhere to the EP.
Mind you, there probably has been a level of that occurring with the EP when they entered into the Czech Republic and re-ordered the state of the Church there and in numerous other places within the old Soviet bloc. Which (justifiably) would have raised the ire of the MP!
On the flip side (and to balance the argument), the EP also has a level of political clout given the large immigrant populations of Greeks around the world who actively and vocally support the EP. The differnce however, is that the EP's political power comes through integration within existing foreign politcal power structures. The MP's political power comes via being aligned with a world super power.
Which one is worse, which one is better, take your pick! But please remember that I am only stating these things as dispassionately as possible. I am just engaging in open discussion and I welcome any other view points that wish to disagree.
Please understand that I agreed with pretty much everything you said. I was not clear in my post. I was laughing because the machinations of any bishop regardless of the amount of economic or politcal power can claim whatever they want doesn't make it so. And the Laity in conjuction with the Bishops will remind them of it each and every time. Regardless of who opens churches where all churches will need to become Local churches sooner or later and not merely outposts of other Patriarchates. |
|
|
|
Yiorgos75
Junior Member
Australia
461 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 20:45:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by ICXCNIKA
Regardless of who opens churches where all churches will need to become Local churches sooner or later and not merely outposts of other Patriarchates.
Agreed.  |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Ecumenical Patriarch on 60 Minutes
